Laura

Hi, Claudia, and welcome to Unsung Stories, thanks for joining us.

 

Claudia

Thanks for having me.

 

Laura

Just so that our listeners can get to know you a little bit better. Would you mind telling us a bit about you, your family and what your days look like?

 

Claudia

Sure. So I'm married to Michael. We have two girls, Matilda, who is four, and Florence is nine months. We live on the sort of low north shore of Sydney where we go to church as well. Our lives at the moment, they look like me at home with the girls, as I'm finishing off my maternity leave. And I'll shortly be back at work where I'll be three days a week. I work at the Australian Museum in the city and I've managed the corporate partnerships team there.

 

So fundraising role. And my husband Mike works full time in the city. He's a town planner. We both keep pretty busy at church as well. So Mike's a warden. We both sit on different sorts of boards as well. And at church, yeah, we love serving in Bible study and music in lots of different things. So our days and weeks can be pretty full.

 

Laura

Wow, that all sounds pretty intense, and like a massive juggling act. Did you always plan on going back to work once you had your kids or were you hoping to be a stay-at-home mum?

 

Claudia

I was definitely planning on going back to work. I grew up with a mum that worked as well. And so I had a really great model and sort of saw what that looked like. Mike was really supportive of me working as well, even though his family upbringing involved his mum staying at home, though she was involved a lot with Mike's dad's work. So we had sort of two slightly different models. But I really love what I do. I love my job.

 

I think I'm pretty good at it. And we're in a position where in my role, I still got so much to learn. I'm in a workplace where I've got great people to learn from. And we live in an area of Sydney where it would be hard for us to just be on one income as well. So going back to work was always part of the plan.

 

Laura

So given how much you love your job and love working, how was it for you changing gears and staying home when you had your babies?

 

Claudia

Yeah, I think it was really different with both the girls. First time round, it was really hard. I was so looking forward to maternity leave, but yeah, I mean, you just never really know what it's going to be like until you get there.

 

And yeah, my first daughter, I mean, she was gorgeous, but I certainly got to a point where I felt really trapped at home. I really missed the structure to my day that working brought. I was really jealous of my husband and resentful of the opportunities that he got to grow his career, and do interesting things that really engaged him. Where I felt like I was sort of missing out being at home. It was a challenge and a time for me to really stop and examine my own heart, and to really try and get to the crux of why I was finding it so hard.

 

But with Florence second time around, it was a bit different. I've probably enjoyed the time off a little bit more. She was born sort of two weeks before we all went into lockdown. So I think having COVID come around and having my husband at home and my four-year-old at home, there was just a few more people around.

 

Claudia

For better or for worse.

 

Laura

Bit different first time and all of a sudden alone for the first time, with a baby who doesn't talk to you and cries at you.

 

Claudia

Yeah, exactly. So I think, yeah, I really missed being around people. And, you know, it was a real shift for me as to how I got satisfaction in my day and just generally in my life. Like I really missed working in a team, seeing other people succeed, succeeding myself and sort of the validation you get from a job well done. You just don't get that from a baby, no matter how like gourmet, you make their puree [crosstalk 00:04:09] on the floor.

 

Laura

"Hey, honey, you did a great job changing those nappies today."

 

Claudia

Never.

 

Laura

That sounds like a big adjustment, having to adjust to having kids and a new role as a mum and life on maternity leave. So then how did you go adjusting back to going into the workforce? That is just so much change after change.

 

Claudia

Yeah. It was. Like we moved houses and there was a lot of change in there, and it was a pretty unsettled sort of time of our lives I think in some ways looking back. But I loved it. I dived in headfirst. I really loved being back in the office, working in the team. Those first few months back were awesome. But I think slowly I sort of then saw that I was only in the office three days, I was missing out on projects and opportunities, and I guess as well that transition back to work part-time.

 

I found that my days off with my daughter were also not living up to my expectations. We had really, just not the best quality time that I was thinking we would have. So it often looked like me working Monday to Wednesday. And those were the longish days, and juggling who was going to pick up Matilda and get her home, and get her fed, and into bed. And it was never a totally reliable rhythm to [crosstalk 00:05:43]. And then on Thursdays, it would be really getting out the door and off to Bible study in the morning, which I was leading.

 

And then Matilda would go into creche and I'd scoop her up at 12, bring her home. She'd nap for a couple of hours. And then we'd run around doing jobs in the afternoon or getting ready for dinner. And then Friday was kind of doing errands and cleaning the house. So I felt like I was working part-time. But then I had these days off with her and I was just running around like mad, doing all of these things, never really getting to stop and enjoy time with her until the weekend.

 

Laura

How did you manage all those demands? Like husband, daughter, church work, charity? Sounds pretty intense.

 

Claudia

Yeah, I don't think we managed them very well to start with. I think I'm inherently a pretty stubborn person and I tend to like overthink things and come up with a plan, and then I want to stick to the plan. But I learnt pretty quickly having children, that there's this beautiful grey area that you have to live in.

 

Laura

They don't read the plan.

 

Claudia

No. No, it's not black and white. There's nothing, there's no linear structure. So I think I sort of winning going, "That's fine. We can manage it all. I've got a plan. This is how it's all going to go." And, you know, on paper, it looked great. Working Monday to Wednesday, Bible study on Thursday morning, having an afternoon together, then some of Friday together and then the weekend. I thought, perfect, but it just didn't work out like that.

 

I learned pretty early on as well that so much of my running around as well was about pleasing people. I felt really torn at work because I wanted to take on new opportunities, because I wanted to prove myself and show my capacity. And yeah, please my boss and my employer. I wanted to run Bible studies and collate that and be a really engaged Bible study leader. You know, to be that model serving mum in the church.

 

And then I need to get my house together. So I just realized that I couldn't please everyone. And I think as well, managing all of those demands, we kind of were stringing it together for a while and then we got really sick, which threw all of our plans into sort of disarray. So we had about six months where we had gastros and colds, and everything that goes through a day-care came home. And it just really showed to me how we are so not in control. And how I can be so disappointed by my own plans because my plans were made of my own selfish desires.

 

I was pinning all of my validations and all of those things that I went, "Yes, this is what success looks like in my week." On things that I was trying to control. And so when that all kind of had to come to a grinding halt and all I could do was literally mop up sick, and put loads of laundry on, it all sort of fell by the wayside. And I think Mike and I realized that we needed to work better as a team. So it was a pretty blurry time managing all of those commitments early on.

 

Laura

So kind of needed to figure out a new way of prioritizing everything.

 

Claudia

Absolutely.

 

Laura

And so what was your thought process in deciding what to prioritize?

 

Claudia

So when we sort of sat back and looked at what to prioritize and how to go about that, for me, it really came down to sort of two key things, which were the practicalities and also the possibilities. So the practicalities was really slimming down on what do we absolutely need do? What do we need to prioritize? And then what were the possibilities? What were those things on the fringe that would be nice to have? Nice to do, but not essential.

 

So that also meant looking at things that might be practicalities like we need to eat. But also assessing things like, "What can we do to make life easier?" And how could we remove stress out of that equation? And so one of those things was me looking at those two days that I had Matilda off, and how we could go about sort of taking back some of that time and removing some of the stress out of it. And so we decided that in the new year, it would be great to look at changing Bible study groups for me, which was such a hard decision.

 

Being in a women's Bible study group is such a good thing. And that was the other thing. We were faced with so many good things. Deciding what to prioritize also looked at how we were serving in church. And so it's really hard when you have to sit down with all these good things in front of you. And it really does come down then to a lot of prayerful consideration, and talking with friends or your minister or other women to really think about how do you go about, what is the most important thing?

 

There's no manual and there's no lightning bolt from the sky that goes, "This will be the schedule for your week." [crosstalk 00:10:56]. So it does, it takes work, I think, to really sit down and knot out what it is that you should spend your time doing. So I guess through that, I looked at some of the other women in our congregation who were also in a similar sort of life stage of working, but [inaudible 00:11:15] morning bible study groups, but finding it hard. Some of them, it was their only day off and they came to Bible study.

 

There were other women who were still working, but worked from home on that day. But would come the two hours during their workday. And this massive commitment, which was so humbling for me to see women prioritize Bible study like that.

 

Laura

Yeah, it's beautiful.

 

Claudia

Yeah. So we looked at sort of different opportunities. And I guess this sort of falls into what I was talking about before with the possibility. And what was the possibility of starting an evening women's group in our congregation to sort of better serve these working mums.

 

And so that's what we did in the new year. So I co-led that with another woman, which was great. But again, this whole idea of we think that it's going to solve all of our problems, but we still were mums that had, a lot of us had been to work that day. We'd done school pick-ups, gotten kids home, gotten them dressed, into bed, and then we'd rush out the door to Bible study. So while we weren't a whole day off, we were exhausted.

 

Laura

And everyone just rocks up, finally sits down and like, "Oh, my goodness, what are we doing here?" Or the waterworks start because we're all women and finally have stopped.

 

Claudia

Yeah. And it was hard. It was really hard. But for me, that was definitely a better place to be, than that really strange feeling of being a woman who loves Jesus in a Bible study group going, "I am not enjoying this on a Thursday morning." Because I just was watching all of this time disappear with my daughter, and I was in the best possible, you know, one of those groups that you look back on and you're like, "Oh my goodness, that was like if I could have designed a group of women, I don't think I could have put together a more awesome group."

 

Laura

Yeah.

 

Claudia

And yeah.

 

Laura

How have you managed cultural expectations in all of this? The world tells us that we can have a career and be a great mum. But from everything you're saying, it sounds like there's a huge tension in all of it. Is it as simple as the world's telling us or what's been your experience?

 

Claudia

It's certainly not as simple. I feel like I was really educated in that worldly cultural lens. So I grew up in a great area of Sydney and went to an amazing school. But we were told we could do absolutely anything. And, you know, smart girls that were given so many opportunities in so many different areas. So, yeah, I definitely left school thinking ...

 

Laura

I need to rule the world.

 

Claudia

Exactly.

 

Laura

And have it all.

 

Claudia

Exactly. I don't think it doesn't take you long to realise, and I think this is God working in my sinful heart as well. And I think people will experience this in different ways. But it's taken me a long time of failing myself, and disappointing myself, and God, and my bosses, and my husband, and my family, my friends. And through all of that, I've learnt I really can't be great at everything. There's no way.

 

Laura

Which is humbling.

 

Claudia

Yeah. I guess my experience is that you can be great at some things. You can't be great at everything. And you certainly can't be great at the same time as everything else. And I think that's sort of been how I've looked at carving up my time with work as well. I have that desire to want to be great in the workplace, to be an excellent mum, an excellent wife, awesome in leading Bible study or serving in ministry at church. But sometimes you can be great at a few of those things, but you can't be great at everything and you can't do it all at the same time.

 

Laura

Yeah. And there's different seasons for different things.

 

Claudia

Absolutely.

 

Laura

You can still be great at serving in your charity, you might just have more time to dedicate to it in 20 years.

 

Claudia

Yeah, and I think that's a big shift. I think it's a big shift for me in looking at how I model that to my daughters as well. I've always wanted them to know, and I've been really lucky in my work that I love what I do. And I know that not everybody is able to have that. But I want them to, and I want to model to them that working sometimes out of necessity and sometimes not, can bring joy and satisfaction. But sometimes it's actually really hard.

 

And so we talk a lot about that with Matilda, that sometimes it's good days at work and sometimes things don't go as planned. And I think also showing her and being honest with her about when I get things wrong. Like there's definitely days where I'm checking my phone or taking work calls or replying to emails and she gets pushed to the side.

 

And as a mum, you acutely feel that tension. You know what's happening. And so I yeah, I want to be able to fess up and own that sort of stuff with her as well. Because I think that pressure to look like you've got it all together all the time is really hard. And I think it's helpful to hear her thoughts on that. And sometimes it is as simple as, "Mum, I really wanted you to play with me today, but you were too busy doing this."

 

And sometimes it is that saying, "I just need to take this phone call, or I need to do this. But after that, we're going to have this time together." But it's pretty hard for a four-year-old to understand.

 

Laura

Yeah. And it would be humbling to have that conversation. And particularly if it's regularly.

 

Claudia

Yeah. You've got to have those conversations regularly so that she feels validated and part of that relationship as well, and that she can say, "It's not working." When it's not working and see that we don't always get it right.

 

Laura

I can see glimpses of living your life as a Christian in that you're coming to her and apologizing and saying, "I'm sorry, I want to do this instead." And I think we do the same thing as Christians. We sin and then we apologize. And I think it's great to include our kids in that, that I'm not done what I've wanted to do. But stopping and turning the other way.

 

Claudia

Yeah, absolutely.

 

Laura

Claudia, have you looked into what God has said in his word about work?

 

Claudia

Yeah. Yeah, I've thought a bit about that. And I think, you know, going back to the foundations of work and why we work is something that I find helpful. And in so many ways, whether we work in the home or in an office, it's part of our purpose. God gave Adam the garden to work and He gave him that role. So it's right for us to work, but also realising that we were given that work before the fall, before our sin.

 

And I think that's really helpful because that shows that our complex relationship that we have to have with work because of that. Sin touches everything that we do. And so we shouldn't be surprised that we feel a discomfort or a tension when it comes to work. And whether that's a desire to be working more or not working at all. I think that that's a reality of this side of creation. But then we look to the New Testament and the model of Paul working for the glory of God.

 

He's just the embodiment of that. And he was working so tirelessly that he trusted in God. And that also, I think the thing I love about Paul, and a lot of the apostles was as well that they were these people supporting Paul. It's something my husband and I love thinking about and working through, especially with our friends and sort of people that are given skills and professional expertise in figuring out how to apply those. Paul was backed in his ministry by people who were financially giving to him, but also people who were advisers.

 

And so I think there's beautiful models in God's word about this idea of patronage as well. How are you using the skills, the gifts, the things that God has given you? Whether that's because of your work or because of your family situation. How are you using all of those things to God's glory?

 

Laura

I often wrestle with that. Like we want to work hard, as if we're working for the Lord and that there will be things that last eternally. And I find Paul really encouraging because there is times that he did rely on people providing for him. But then there's also other times that he did work making tents and didn't want to be a burden. I find it helpful in this season of motherhood to know that this isn't always forever. My working situation now is not the rest of my life. And so this is just for me. This is a season where I'm to stay home, but there could be other seasons where I will be out working, where I might be working at church, or all these different options. But yeah, just that while I am home, I'm going to be faithful and I'm going to work hard and I'm going to use the gifts that he has given me to work hard where he's placed me now.

 

Claudia

Yeah, I think the whole seasonal nature of life, you kind of get it before you have kids, but it's really all the more drummed into you [crosstalk 00:20:32] just that sort of everything's, you know, get to the four weeks, get to the sixth week. We kind of get this rhythm to life. And you do sort of realize that we can dwell in a situation that might be really hard, knowing that it's not going to be forever. But equally, we can be in that situation and suck up all of the goodness out of it knowing that it's not going to stay that way.

 

Laura

Yes. And either way, whether it's good or hard, it is a season, and you take the good with the bad. And I think you really see that. I see that each time I have a kid and all of a sudden, "Ah, I'm back here again." I think it's actually a really beautiful pattern that God has given us. Do you have any practical tips to survive the juggle and anything to assess and check the ideals behind your decision-making process?

 

Claudia

I think my two big tips are constantly checking your heart and remembering the Lord, your God, and dwelling deeply in scripture. And some, I guess some practical ways of doing that is finding some Godly sisters who are also juggling or thinking deeply about these things. And that may have totally different approaches. I count some of my closest friends, women who have big careers that may have stepped back from those, those who are growing in theirs. Women who work but would really rather be at home with their kids. And others who aren't working, but are really grappling to look at how to fit working with being a mum and serving faithfully in the church.

 

And those diversity of relationships really help me to look at the decisions that I'm making to look at women who may be further along, whether it's in their careers or just in their family size with kids starting school before mine or whatever it is. So I think my number one tip is really building that community and being vulnerable or accountable. If there are things that are really key and are sort of core struggles. Sharing that with somebody and praying through that with another Christian sister is so valuable.

 

And whether that's Godly encouragement or just that friend that can send you their killer meal plan. That will save you having to think through, how are you going to buy groceries on a certain week where you just feel spent. It's just so valuable to have those sorts of relationships. And having women that will point and bring you back to God's scripture. I think being aware of your struggles, but turning back to God's word is so important in the juggle. For me, it's just so easy for me to be so self-reliant. To think that I can do it all, and again with kids that is certainly stripped away from you very quickly. But for some reason I keep on coming back to that and thinking all over again that I can do it. Which you'd think you'd learn.

 

Laura

Do you have any advice or encouragement for the mum who's going back to work and doesn't want to? Or for the mum who is feeling stuck at home and that she's serving her family and it feels mundane and unsatisfying?

 

Claudia

I think, for the mum who is going back to work but doesn't want to, I think I'd encourage her to really think through for herself why it is that she has to work, and see the goodness that work can bring in a family situation. Whether that's a stability of income, providing for your children. I think those are good things, but sometimes can feel really hard to define the goodness in.

 

Laura

Even doing hard things that it's good to do things that you don't want to do is a pretty beautiful quality to model for your kids.

 

Claudia

What an active service. And I think as well, then thinking through how you want to talk to your kids about that is really important. Sometimes we are so much better at kind of putting together things to explain to our children. And I find sometimes when I do that, it makes much more sense to me when I've sort of spun it for a four-year-old.

 

All of a sudden it impacts my heart in a very different way. So I really encourage that mum to go through that process. Bitterness and resentment towards work is really hard. And for the mum, who's desperate or really keen to get back to work, but is feeling, yeah, I guess a bit like being at home feels like she's trapped, more mundane. I think, remembering the idea that these are temporary stages that we're going through. That we are so lucky to have those good, beautiful moments with our children.

 

But we need to let the bad wash over knowing that it won't last forever. And I think as well, it's really easy to idolise our future working self. Sometimes we might pin our hopes on, it would be so much better for our marriage if I'm not at home during the day feeling resentful. That will solve that struggle a little bit that we're facing in our relationship. That would probably still be there. You might just be resenting your husband about not doing pick-up more often or being late or whatever it is. So sometimes we can really pin those hopes and solutions on those future ideals.

 

Laura

The heart issues are still going to be there if you don't work through the heart issues.

 

Claudia

Absolutely.

 

Laura

What would your take-home point be when thinking about work and church and family and just managing it all?

 

Claudia

I think coming back to the idea that we've all fallen short from the glory of God and that we're sinful people. So our relationship with work and home life and church and family will always be complex, and it will always be tainted by sin. But that we can bring these things to God, we can be prayerful women, that we can be assessing our heart and dwelling in God's word. Have true satisfaction rest in God's word and not in our work or church or family. That's where our true satisfaction is.