Laura

Thank you so much for joining us, Kim.

 

Kim

Fantastic. Good to be with you, Laura.

 

Laura

Just so that our listeners can get to know you a little better. Would you mind telling us a bit about yourself and your family and what regular everyday life looks like for you?

 

Kim

My family consists now of just my husband and I living in a very small one bedroom flat while we build a new house. And the rest of my grown-up adult children are all married and living at the moment on the coast. So we have lots of time with our grandchildren and with our family. It's really lovely. And of course, the Central Coast is an awesome place to be.

 

Laura

Hmm, that's beautiful. Nice that you can be around or your grandbabies.

 

Kim

That's right. And they're growing six and one coming.

 

Laura

Oh my goodness. Congratulations.

 

Kim

Thank you.

 

Laura

So I know that you've done a fair bit of work with couples and their marriages. Adjusting to parenthood can often come with a new set of challenges. Difference in opinion of how to parent and work-life balance, new identities, all the fun stuff. Would you have any advice that you could offer to the couple or to the mum who feels overwhelmed with their new responsibility and now has to deal with conflicts that weren't there before?

 

Kim

Interesting. Conflicts that weren't there before? I think that any life circumstances will bring out the stuff that really is there and maybe it hasn't come to the surface. And as you and I would know, a young couple's marriage is so different once the children do come. And so there could be things that you have just put up with or thought, "I can live with." And so you buried a few things under the rug. But once the kids come along, there's just less resources, there's less emotional energy and there's less willingness to let things go sometimes.

 

So when you're tired, when you've got less resources, when the kids are always at you, you will just bubble up and burst out more often. So it's a complex situation. Every couple will be different. But geez, I could talk on that for a couple of hours, Laura. But the question was, what's the advice to the young couple? It will likely be the young mum who starts to feel the tension more and quite often a bemused father.

 

Let me put it that way. The father often says things like, "I don't know who you are anymore." Or, "What's happened to my wife?" You know, "You put a doppelganger in there and you've disappeared." Because they are used to someone who is now very different. She has a different body. She has different hormones. She has different tiredness and energy levels. So it's probably the mum who will feel it and want to raise issues. And that's where learning how to raise issues is a good step to start.

 

Would you like me to talk about that?

 

Laura

Yeah, would love you too.

 

Kim

Okay. So I find with it within a couple, whether they're young married, or whether mid marriage or kids or not kids? It's often the case that the thing you conflict about or the thing that you have a problem with is triggered by something that happens. And so the trigger lets off the emotions or the anger, the outburst or whatever it is. And yet it's very rarely what is the real issue?

 

The real issue will be something a lot deeper. And that's the trick. Trying to figure out "Have I just triggered something that's deeper and what do I do when I've had that trigger? Do I learn to stop, reflect on and go, 'What's going on here? What's going on with me? What's going on with you?' Or do I just outburst and away I go." And so that will be where couples sometimes end up going, "I don't even know why we're fighting about this. What happened?"

 

You know, it'll be something as simple as the garbage isn't being taken at all. Or you know, you forgot to get the milk on the way home or something like that. Which in itself, in a normal situation might be just shrugged off. But if it's pointing to something different, something deeper, which could be as deep as, "I could never trust you." Or, "You're so unreliable." Then that's where you've got to go beyond the trigger to the issue.

 

And that's not easy to do. It really isn't. How do you even know that you've been triggered? How do you raise the issue? How do you understand the issue? How do you work on the issue, how do you move on? And that's a big, complex scenario.

 

Laura

Where would you start in all of that so you can identify, “Ok, I might be acting irrationally?” because he did just forget to take out the garbage bins. How do you start with your own anger and outburst and reaction to all of that?

 

Kim

Sadly, you'll often react before you've got to think about it. And so that's why I did say you sometimes go, "How did this all happen? We were quiet, we were driving along and everything was lovely and then suddenly we were [inaudible 00:05:07]." So I think if you're wise and mature enough to actually say, "Hey, I've just triggered something here, I think I'd better be quiet for a little while and sit with it."

 

I mean, if you're mature and wise enough to do that, you'll save yourself a lot of grief. If it's already come out, there is a chance to say something simple like, "I don't know where that came from." Or, "I'm really upset that I yelled at you. I need time to think about this." And that way you're not blaming someone for something, you're not blaming yourself for it. You're just saying, "Something's happened here and I need time to process it." So they're the wise and mature ways to start.

 

Laura

I think my husband actually does this quite beautifully, and I think that husbands would have to take tender care with it, particularly when you are worked up about something, but he'll often say, "Hey, it sounds like you're being triggered here. Do you want to take a minute and then we can sit down and talk about it together?" And I go, that's my little cue of, "Oh, I might be overreacting here." But if I had a husband who was just, "Oh, you're going over the top, you're just triggered here." I don't think that would be helpful either.

 

Kim

You've hit on something really important here. You've got a husband we need to clone. If he's got [crosstalk 00:06:21]

 

Laura

He would love to hear that.

 

Kim

But I also think that somewhere along the line, you've probably come to that because you've dealt with a whole bunch of triggers that haven't gone well for you. So a couple who's learnt this doesn't work, tries to think of something else. And so what it looks like you've come up with is, "These are the words I'm going to say when I see that." And rather than yell at you and say, "Oh, you're overreacting." He's gone, "Hmm seems to me there's a trigger." And he's got this little [inaudible 00:06:48] words down. And I think that's really helpful. It's helpful for him to know what to say because a lot of husbands just go, "Oh, I don't know, everything I say is wrong." And then it's helpful for you to hear the same words because that way you go, "Ah I have reacted badly." Now it's up to you then whether you go at one stage, 20 years down the track, "Stop saying that to me. I'm sick of that." And away you go again. But at the moment it's working well for you. And so I think that's a good take for all couples to think what would work well for us? Is it just a hand signal with a T. Time out, time out, you know? Would that work for you? Is there another word that you use or, you know, it's just so individual for every couple, what will make them spiral and what will calm them down?

 

And I think that's the difference. We're trying to work out what works for us that will calm us down and help us get to the deeper issue or what bad moves, if we made in that just spirals us out.

 

Laura

As you were talking, I was just thinking a lot of it comes down to humility on both sides. So whether you're the one who's getting, if you're the one hearing the person blow up at you and often saying irrational things, it takes humility for you to say, "Hang on, I'm not going to react to what they're saying about me. I'm going to in love, steer them in the right direction. And it takes humility from the person who is blowing up to go, "Actually, I'm not going to act on my overwhelming emotion right now. I'm going to stop and clearly articulate what I think and feel to communicate well together."

 

Kim

Totally. And you picked up a good point there, too, that we, in the moment take things very personally and we don't go, "There's something else going on here that we could address together. And so a lot of couples will end up blaming each other or thinking badly of each other as the problem. Rather than saying, "We have a problem." So the scenario would go is, "You're the problem." "No, you're the problem." "You're thinking wrong." "No, you're thinking wrong." "You did it." "I did it."

Back and forth like a tennis ball across the tennis court, you know, smashing at each other. Whereas if you can, as you said, think generously of each other and slow the process down, you can actually start to think, "Oh, let's play doubles on this. Let's get on the same side of the tennis court and let's look at what is the issue coming at us so that we can whack the ball together."

 

And that is a very, it takes a long while to actually go, "Hey, we're not enemies here. We're actually on the same team. And what we both want is a less volatile, probably, less volatile interactions with each other. Let's try and work out what's this ball coming at us." And for every couple that will be different. But a lot of times with young mums especially, it's time pressure and over work, on both sides, men and women.

 

If you're in the traditional marriage, where the old fashioned traditional, where the mums at home, she's [inaudible 00:09:46], but so is he. And that's the big change. So thinking of yourselves as a team and trying to get through those blow-ups, you know, and I don't you want to go there too, but not every couple blows up at each other. So it can be that some couples say to me, "Oh, we never fight."

 

Laura

That was us.

 

Kim

Yeah, it was you? For how long?

 

Laura

Until seven years in. 

 

Kim

And what do you put that down to that you would never fight?

 

Laura

I think we actually had wonderful pre-marriage counselling and got taught how to communicate quite well. But I think there was lots of what you were saying about just letting things go. We were both very good at letting things go until, you know, three kids in or even three kids and you're pregnant and have a business and you just get to the point where you like, "Actually, these little things do matter to me." Or lots of it actually was my frustrations just coming out? I think I've had a lot of questioning why we operate certain ways, as in Christian culture.

 

So thinking how feminism works into things and going, "Is this just because I'm oppressed because I'm a Christian and." You know all of the questions and having to wrestle through them, and just tiredness. Once you're both tired, sometimes you just get to the point where it's easier to yell rather than sit down and go, "Actually, we know how to communicate. Let's go back to sitting on the couch, working as a team, looking at the problem we have and facing it together."

 

Kim

Yeah, yeah. And that's wonderful to learn seven years in. Some couples don't know that. But it is interesting that the research has basically, you know, as I've been doing, reading and marriage counselling and things like that. A lot of it is how you start that conversation, how you actually begin, and the concept being that if you start harshly with someone, a harsh start-up, it's called the conversation will very rarely go well. So, for instance, the scenario the husband does forget, the milk, you know, comes back in.

 

A wife could just do the spiral thing by just going, "What do you mean you forgot it again? I can never rely on you." You know, "You never do what I ask you to da-da-da-da." So how's it going to go for the rest of the night, basically? And so we call that a harsh start-up and actually criticizing the person rather than just saying, "Oh, I really wanted that milk, what happened?"

 

And even if you just say, "What happened?" Then he might have a good excuse. He might go, "Well, I helped someone fix a tire on the side of the road and then I forgot." You don't know.

 

Laura

Or just, "Hey I'm human, I'm really sorry. I was distracted, I forgot." Basically we all have those moments.

 

Kim

Yeah. And, "I'm going out to get it now."

 

Laura

[crosstalk 00:12:41] to the other person.

 

Kim

And where we can have a lot of grace where we don't feel the problem is that big. But forgetting milk's not that big. There's other issues that are huge in a marriage, disrespect, a lot of contempt, you know, but the real big issues of addiction and affairs and all the rest of it. They're not what we are talking about today. But I think it's just important to realize that you can't bury everything, and some things need to be brought up, definitely. But it's sort of trying to work out the hill to die on, is a hard one. And it'll never work well if you start to throw character assassinations at each other rather than, as you said, sitting down and going, "What's really going on? Let's sit on the couch and let's find a bit of time to talk about this."

 

Laura

Hmm.

 

Kim

You said something about being tired. And what do you think about the verse in the Bible that says, "Do not let the sun go down on your anger?"

 

Laura

Oh, I don't know what the right bible answer to this one is because I don't quite take that literally, but I know lots of people do.

 

Kim

Yeah.

 

Laura

So I'm in the stage, and I have been for the last six years of, when the sun goes down, I'm still working, I'm still getting up to my kids. And so sometimes for us, it's not to ignore that there's a problem, it's to acknowledge, you know, "We do need to talk about this, but perhaps now's not the right time when I need to go and feed." That sort of thing.

 

So we definitely bookmark it and book in a time to talk about it. But I do know some people who literally will not go to sleep until they've both not angry. They've both spoken about their issues.

 

Kim

Yeah, well, I'll go with your version. That's come from forty-two years’ worth of marriage as well. The later it gets, the worse you're going to be. And unfortunately, and I don't know if this is a gender thing too, men can switch off easier than women I believe. A woman's brain just will not leave, and it'll just churn, and churn and churn. And so you'll find that the woman gets no sleep at all that night because they've stayed up till 2 am trying to figure it out and haven't.

 

Laura

Think about every argument, every possible scenario.

 

Kim

Yeah, yeah. And the catastrophic thinking can come into play. You can end up signing divorce papers in your sleep. Whereas a man can often just roll over and [inaudible 00:15:03] out and then the woman's angry, "Why are you sleeping? How can you sleep?" So I think that the bookmark that you mentioned, the saying, "We know this isn't sorted." But just to be able to say, "We'll be okay."

 

Laura

Yes.

 

Kim

"We will be okay. We'll work this out." Even that little sense of relief, it can just calm you down enough so you can sleep and look at it again in the morning.

 

Laura

I don't think you could do it if you didn't acknowledge that there's an issue. If we were just giving each other the silent treatment and went to bed, I think there would be, that wouldn't work. But if we acknowledge this tension here, we need to work on this. It just gives that just puts a pin in. It gives you that breather to carry on when you're, like you said, both not tired and overemotional and had a big day.

 

Kim

Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, it's not like we are saying the Bible verse is wrong. We're saying, look, the anger might be there, but we can't solve it.

 

Laura

Yes.

 

Kim

That's all. But so the sun might go down, but we know that we'll come to it at a better time and space.

 

Laura

Yeah. And I think waiting actually diffuses a lot of the emotion behind it. And I don't know about other people, but for me it goes, "Well maybe I was acting a little over the top. It's not as drastic and dramatic as I thought it was. We can relax and we can talk about it calmly." There might still be an issue there and we can talk about that. But it takes away all that added emotion, pressure cooker situation.

 

Kim

It does, depending on what you do with that space and that time. And so here's a problem for some over-thinkers and some catastrophic thinkers. The emotion, they can actually spiral themselves up depending on how they think. And I think that's you know, it's taken out of context for me to say, "Take every captive thought." Because that's meant to be about Jesus. But there is a point where you have to actually self-talk.

 

You have to tell yourself, you have to calm yourself down, and you have to try and think generously of your partner. Now, if you are in a normal, non-abusive type of relationship, there will be some very good points about your husband or wife that you really, you marry them for a good reason. And there's probably more positive than negatives. So it helps in that time, helps me, to go, "Ahh he might have stuffed up now, but honestly, look at what he does other times." Or, "I may have stuffed up now, but in general, I'm trying to be kind and thoughtful." 

 

So generous thinking of your partner is a huge skill to develop over your whole marriage. To actually give them the benefit of the doubt, to actually remind yourself why you married them. Put the pros and the cons against each other. And as I say, if you're in a normal marriage that will have conflict but isn't abusive, then I think you can talk yourself down and be in a much better space, as you say, when you bookmark it for another time.

 

Laura

So you were just saying hopefully saying then that a normal relationship has conflict and arguments. Some couples would say that they never actually argue. What would you say to that?

 

Kim

I think we've touched on it a bit there. It's often in a younger couple who still in that highly blending happy stage of life. Honestly, one of the most foremost experts in marriage is a fella called John Gottman. And his comment that I remember says, "Lasting marriage is dependent on the couple's ability to resolve the inevitable conflicts in marriage." In other words, it's inevitable. You will conflict. Now why wouldn't you? Because one, you seen as for a start, both know you're selfish.

 

We all want our own way, most of the way. But you're also coming from two very different families usually, and it will depend on how your families have dealt with conflict. So there will be those families who never talk about anything and who just accept that they can go to their room, close the door, and when they come out, everything's OK. And so if you've come from a family like that, you just will not understand the rage that some other people can have that are used to bringing up everything and yelling and screaming and slamming doors and all sorts of things that will go on.

 

So you've got two different people coming to the marriage with their baggage from their family of origin. If you say a couple's never arguing, they may have both come from the same sort of family where they closed the door, and everyone just deals with themselves and walks out. Does that work in the long run? How do I know? I'm not living in one of those [laughter 00:19:40] It's probably going to last a while and maybe it will be the kids that bring it out.

 

But I know it was another lady, Dr Caroline Leaf I think, she said that, "If you try and be at peace and keep the peace with everyone, you'll end up with a war inside yourself." Some words like that. And I think it will literally come out somewhere along the line. [crosstalk 00:20:04] to juggle? What do you bring up and what don't you? Because if you bring up every single thing and make a big thing out of it, you know, especially if you're the woman, the man's going to think, "The marriage is just terrible because you're always complaining about something." You know, and then he might give up. He might lose hope. So there is a sense where you've got to self-talk again and go, "Is this something worth going through or do I just need to go for a walk and get my head around it and think positively and generously?"

 

Laura

You touched on something there with men and nagging. Do you think it's true that men think that women are always at them and nagging?

 

Kim

Most of the men I know think that. And again, how do you phrase things so it doesn't sound like nagging? That's another big issue. It's not even in the conflict words. [crosstalk 00:20:55] It's probably more in the "What does a man really need and what does a woman really need?"

 

But it is so true, I think, that women are more emotional gatekeepers of a marriage and they'll notice when things don't feel right. And I do think we're more complicated. I am not a sense of everyone is the same. I think genders are different. I think God made us different and I think that our ability to test the temperature of the marriage is a God-given thing. Depends what we do with it. But a lot of men I know, most men I know just want a home where he can relax in.

 

And a woman wants one that's nice and vibrant, and alive, and moving along, and we're growing. And that can be a pressure. And I think for a man in his 30s especially, this has stuck with me, a man between 30 and 40 or 35 and 45. They do need somewhere to relax, and the homes aren't always relaxing are they? So the more pockets of relaxing we can give them and the more we can deal with their own issues and only bring up, you know, the important things, not hide the important things. But yeah, we certainly can't be the person he doesn't want to come home to.

 

Laura

I don't want to say this is what works for us. But I find, and I feel like it's a sacrifice as I'm in a season of young kids, but to give my husband that outlet. So for him, it's the gym. So we say and like, you know, an hour, half an hour every day, you need to go and exercise because that's his, I guess what you're saying about coming home and relaxing. That's his outlet to get out his frustration, to work through anxieties and just even release some of that physical tension that men carry.

 

Another friend is similar. Her husband doesn't exercise, but he does other things like I don't know, he could be a gamer or whatever, but to actually go, you have time. This is the time as a couple we allocate. It's been so helpful for our marriage. And my husband does that for me too. To go, "You need a break. You need to go and exercise or for me, to work on this podcast or read your Bible." Or do all of these things to work as a team and go, "Here's some time."

 

So when it is chaotic, you know that it's coming, you know that you're going to get a break and you can deal with the chaos of children.

 

Kim

And what you're describing, I just wish we could bottle it and give it to a whole bunch of other young couples. Because what you're building there is a real sense of, "I care about you and I care about us." It's not just, "I'm the mother now. And, you know, that's the way it is." And a lot of marriages do become very child-centric. And in reality, it might feel like it's going to go on forever. But you will be alone again.

 

You two, every couple, you will be alone together. And you've got to be able to turn to each other and know what each other, know who each other is.

 

 Laura

And [crosstalk 00:23:42] hope you like each other after 20 years.

 

Kim

That's right. And all the things that I've heard you saying Laura are things that will help that process. And if this podcast can help people go, "Oh, I'll pick up that, I'll pick up that." Then great because this is the time of the most pressure, the most lack of time, sleep, busyness and all the rest of it. But it goes so quickly, and you need to be still a couple at the end of it.

 

You want to still remember the man you fell in love with, the woman you fell in love with. And it won't be as heady as it was, but it'll be solid and deep and then you will get your convertible and drive off into the sunset.

 

 Laura

I think that's what's hard when you hear, "Oh you know, men 30 to 40. They just need that space to relax." I think that adds this whole other pressure. You feel like you need to make sure that it's that calm house for your husband. I'm not sure, but it's not always the reality that you can provide that. And so I think that's why if you can work out together what would work, it's a together thing. It's not the wife just has to make everything happy for him and he has to make everything happy for his wife.

It's that continuous teamwork.

 

 Kim

Totally. And actually giving that space with a thoughtful heart rather than a, "Well you got to play golf. I didn't get to play golf." That's the whole key, you know.

 

Laura

That's why for us, we have to schedule it in. So that we know that it's coming and have that little carrot dangling for you. So it doesn't feel unfair or like one's always giving more than the other.

 

Kim

Yeah. And that works really well if you've got a non-commuting husband who doesn't have to get on a train at 5:30 and get home at 7. Everyone's situation is different. But I do think there's resources out there that couples do need to talk about and use. Friends, grandparents, and things like that just to get that time singularly and together. And that just builds a base of, we actually like each other and we like the life we've got. We've just got to deal with it.

 

And as far as the conflict goes, that will help. Because in reality, the conflicts can feel like huge when they happen. But unless they're happening every single day, you've got more positives than negatives in your marriage and you've got to try and remember that. Build the positives, and that'll help you get through the negative times. And over a long marriage, even when you feel really bad and you go, "Oh what's going on?" You look back and you go, "Oh, we got through that. And we got through that. We got through that."

 

And if you have, you know, you've built something that you just rely on. And all that, and God's strength and just keeping yourself strong with God through it all. Makes you much more resilient and just getting a grip on the reality of life that it isn't going to be heaven here on earth. And now that's what we look forward to. But we won't be married anyway. But we live little along the way I think

 

Laura

From what you were saying, it sounds like a little bit like building muscle. Tear, repair, tear, repair. But what do you think's happening for the couple who just feels like they're having the same argument over and over? Like, "Here we go again. How did we get into this? Will we ever agree? Should we just give up? Because we'll never agree." Do you have any wisdom for them?

 

Kim

I do have a sense of whenever you're counselling someone, you're looking at what's a circumstantial problem and what's a perpetual problem, because there will be perpetual problems that will never be resolved totally. You will have to learn to live with them, but actually coming to accept those things. And they may be personality, family of origin, just differences. You know, I don't like that sort of movie or I don't want to go camping, all those sorts of things that might never, ever be resolved in that sense.

 

So getting to the bottom of them as early as you can will help you not be in that, "Oh, here we go again." But mostly it will be about the old Ephesians verse love and respect. It'll be a sense of if you're really feeling like you're getting in a spiral again, it's often the wife will feel like you don't love me and a man who'll feel you don't respect me, you don't respect my opinion. I do think, and myself included, this is hard in that we often feel we just know best for the family, for the marriage.

 

And so we push it and the guy just goes, "Oh, here we go again." You know, "I can never make you happy. You're a bottomless pit." That's hard, but a spiral of here we go again. Stop and think, is this a circumstantial? Is it just because you want to go to the movies, and I want to go out to dinner? Or is it a perpetual thing that we're going to hit up again and again and again?

 

And if so, if it's really that bad, get some help with it, because there's a lot of good help out there. There's a lot of good things you can do for yourself just by reading well, and keeping your own life as calm as it can. There's also professional help you can get to if you're really in a spiral that just is over and over and over again and years down the track. You just going, "Oh, my goodness, what have I done?" I think go get some help with that one.

 

Laura

So practically get help. Would you have any books or podcasts or videos or anything that you would recommend?

 

Kim

Oh gosh. Off the top of my head, there's so many good books for your Christian mum, you can do theological type books which are helpful because they do put you in a perspective, you know, the meaning of marriage. Tim Keller. One Flesh, I forget who wrote that one, there's lots on sex as well.

 

Laura

I think Juli Slattery is quite helpful. Java with Juli.

 

Kim

Yeah, I love that one, too as you know. Mostly on intimacy, but still very good if that's where you're finding the conflict as well. She's the expert in that. It's great. So that's authentic intimacy or Java with Juli. John Gottman is a good, not so much Christian, but certainly not anti. You know, there's a lot of really good normal books that are still very helpful, but it's definitely on something about a successful marriage.

 

Jim

There's plenty of John Gottman books that are very good and another one that I've found really helpful and I can't tell you the author without going away, is Why Women Talk and Men Walk, and that's on the basis of the difference in genders when you feel that your husband just won't talk to you about anything, what's going on for him? And how can I get to the bottom of my problems if you won't talk to me? So Why Women Talk and Men Walk is one to understand the differences.

 

Laura

I will look all of these up and put them in the show notes for anyone wanting to follow them up.

 

Kim

If you see a lot of books by the same author, then you probably on a good thing. If you only see one might be just a flash in the pan. Yeah, that's right.

 

Laura

I have a little bit of a different kind of question to the train that we've been going down, but I have heard it regularly around the place and I was wondering if you'd have any advice. Just because we're women, do you feel like we have to submit to our husbands and concede to how they think they should be doing something? Or how does the role of submission work into conflict?

 

Kim

Sure, that's a big one. Listen to Juli Slattery on that one. She's great. She's got a really good podcast on what the biblical submission really look like. It's certainly obviously the Bible is a respecter of male and female. And I don't go along with the Bible putting women down at all. I think it elevates women's position in so many ways, which we can't, you know, list everything in it. I do think if you've got a husband who will listen to your opinion and you actually really, really disagree with something which I've done in my marriage where I've said, "I do not think this is good for the family. I cannot see this working." I've been strong, in my opinion.

 

I think you can just say that strongly and then go, "And I leave it with you." I haven't had to, the one time in my life where I actually did that, the circumstance didn't come about. So I didn't have to submit, but I was willing to. And I think the ability to say, "Look, you are the leader, you are the head of the family. And I hear that you've listened to me. So I'm glad you've listened to me. And these are my reasons."

 

But then you've got to just listen to his reasons too. But some men do some pretty stupid things, let's be real. And you've got to call on it sometimes. You know, you've got to otherwise you're not carrying your side of the relationship or your side of the family. So I don't agree with submitting in the sense of without being heard, I think we all should be respecting each other.

 

Laura

And I think there's a big difference. If he says, "I hear you, I hear your concerns X, Y, Z." He knows what you're saying. "However, I really do think that this is the best way forward." I think that's a bit of a different circumstance to submit and go along with what he says. But if it's, if you're not being heard, do you have any advice there? If he's not understanding what you're saying or he's not, it's not that partnership. It's just well he thinks this so that's what we do. And I'm repeatedly not being heard.

 

Kim

Yeah, you'd have to really start to look down, sadly, an abusive relationship. If you're never being heard and never being taken into account. So that's a whole different story. We can't go into that one here. But I do think there's times where if you think something's illegal or immoral, you know, I've had people's husbands might say, "Well, I really think, you know, we should be doing this and inviting other people into the bedroom and things like that."

 

Well, no shouldn't submit to that above submitting to God, do you? So you have to just say no. And not all women are married to Christian husbands who get this at all. So they are trying to be a light to their husbands while they have husbands who are not biblically minded, who are not thinking about them. There would be times where you would not submit in that case. You don't have a head of the house if he's blatantly asking you to do something immoral or illegal or whatever.

 

But a lot of the times it'll just be real preferences that I don't want to move north. You know, you want to take the position up in Townsville and I don't want to go. I've had couples in those situations. And, boy, it's a tough one. I don't think it ever goes well not to hear each other out. And in the end, if he says, "We're going." And you're a Christian couple, then you've got to think about going.

 

That's my experience of submission where it really counts at the end of it.

 

Laura

Yeah, that's helpful. Thank you. Would you have any advice that you could offer to us as wives as we invest in our marriage? Is there anything we could be doing to strengthen our relationship with our husband?

 

Kim

Oh gosh. Heaps. Wake up every day. Pray for him. I pray for my husband every morning as I roll over. Sometimes it's very short, but I had to put it in the day or it wouldn't happen. So I just roll over and when I'm usually awake first, just have a quick prayer, puts my mind on him, what he needs, how I can love and serve him, and I don't do it very well lots of the time, but I think I do it worse if I didn't pray for him.

 

So you could do that. You've touched on a lot, giving time, tackling things as a team, try and get a weekend away together for your anniversary or to go to a marriage retreat, something like that. You know, I don't know too many couples who manage the date night thing, but if you can I know a couple who've managed it. And I think wonderful, because then you're actually realizing you're not just a family, you are a couple. Read good books. Talk to your friends. Not many people will like to talk about their marriage. Like if you've got a few good friends that you can talk to, get a friend of the marriage, as I call it. Which where you can actually just say, "Would you pray for me?" I wouldn't tell too many people. But if you've got one or two that you feel are on your side and will help you through that's great.

 

And there's a really good question that Linda Dillow asks, who's a friend of Juli Slattery's. And she said, "Just every now and then, ask your husband this question. What's it like to be married to me?" Isn't that scary?

 

Laura

Does anyone want the answer to that question?

 

Kim

She wrote a whole book on that one. So that's a good one to read, too. What's it like to be married to me? Oh, my goodness. You talk about humility. That's where it's gonna hit.

 

Laura

My advice would be really pick your timing when you ask that question. I have a really good day. [crosstalk 00:36:31] 

 

Kim

And you've put out the best favourite meal. And it's a good question to ask because what if they actually did answer that? What's it like to be married to me? It won't all be good. No one will have a one hundred percent scorecard, will they? It's funny.

 

Laura

What encouragement would you offer people in the younger years of their marriage or those with younger kids, or how would you encourage them in this season?

 

Kim

Yeah, in the season of really busy-ness with family, I'd encourage you that, I know everyone says it doesn't last long, but it really doesn't. So try and milk the joy out of it and try and laugh. And that sounds really weird, but get something on the TV that'll make you both laugh for half an hour and laugh. Because sometimes if you don't laugh, you cry. You will look back on these years with fondness.

 

Believe it or not, you will. And if you've got any, this is another funny thing too. But I've got a screen, a TV screen that just picks up photos all the time and the memories that comes back are good ones. Obviously you don't take photos of horrible things, but why I'm saying these funny little practical things is because you can feel in this time of your marriage, in life, that it's overwhelming and it's never going to end.

 

And it's all too much work and it is a lot of work. So practically laughing, finding something that you love, looking on memories, but get some practical help. If there's any financial ability to pay a cleaner to clean your bathroom once a month, you know, something like that or whatever it is. Because the time you'll save, you'll appreciate that more than the money you'll save. Like it'll go on something else. For sure. And finally, with those with multiple children, I do think it's important not to, and I don't know how you do this, Laura, in your age group, but the comparison game, the Instagram posts, the everything that you think everyone else's family is just wonderful and mine's not, that's just not helpful.

 

So if you can turn off from that stuff or if you can laugh at it, just go, "Well, that's not us." Enjoy your little triumphs where things are fun and the kids are sitting at the table and eating the meal. But sometimes you just got to, yeah. Just realize it will pass and you will have been investing in your family if you're bringing them to church, if you're praying for them, if you're reading things with them, no matter what else happens in the day. If you have a few good routines where you know that you give them a cuddle and say you love them, but you also give your husband a cuddle and say you love him, you make time with your date nights or your weekend away, or you don't neglect the bedroom stuff, which is a whole new topic, then you will make it. Look around you.

 

How many people do you know? I mean, there's lots of divorces, I know. But most people make it. And they look back at their young families and go, "Ahh yeah, I remember that." But usually don't want to go back there. So that's where [crosstalk 00:39:44]. Yeah. So pray, time, laugh. Create your memories and don't get too busy comparing yourself. Try not to pack your week out too much. Try and keep your Sundays a bit quiet.

 

Yeah, don't be doing so many things that you never see each other, and you feel like a tag team couple, and try and find some of the simple pleasures. And if you could make the simple pleasures seem amazing to your children, you know, like if you can make getting an ice-cream on Sunday night's just fantastic because you don't have it every night, then you're building funny little memories that are easy to keep up. And the times as you work through the conflicts to just keep generously thinking of him or her and realize you'll get through it.

 

And God's given us a great gift in marriage, a great gift. But we are sinful people who need help with it. So get the help you need.