Laura

Welcome to another episode of Unsung Stories. Thank you so much for joining us, Sarah.

 

Sarah

Not a problem. Happy to be here.

 

Laura

Would you mind telling us a little bit about your family and what regular life looks like for you and just some simple things that bring you joy?

Yeah. So I'm Sarah and I'm married to Chris. We have three children Inda is twelve. Noah is ten next week and Sullivan is six. Everyday life for me is different this year because I've got all kids at school. But yes, I've been a stay-at-home mom since my oldest was born 12 years ago. And I do a little bit of photography on the side. So that's also something that brings me joy, but it's also something I spend time doing in my week.

 

Laura

Do you have an Instagram account or anything?

 

Sarah

I do have an Instagram account? This is a bit of a plug. @SarahHarrisprints

 

Laura

Awesome and here's me being all podcast fancy and I will tag that in the show notes. Always wanted to say that.

 

Sarah

Thank you.

 

Laura

So you said that all of your kids are at school now. How is that transition? But I kind of feel like you're living the housebound mum's dream. Like, is it what we think it is or are we idolizing it?

 

Sarah

Yes, it's different. It's a very new age. I think I had it built up as quite a fantasy in my head. It's kind of the goal to get to. So that I have days 

 

Laura

And less hours.

 

Sarah

And less hours to do whatever I want. But then COVID happened this year, so that threw a spanner in the works. And instead of having all kids at school, I suddenly had all three kids at home. So that was yeah. Felt like God was, had a good sense of humour. And yeah. Taught me a fair bit about humility in that season. So yes, it was tough but it was good. And look, the second half of the year since they've been back at school, there have been quite great moments where, you know, the house is quiet.

I can put on some music, clean the house and it's still clean in a few hours, those kinds of things. There is a bit of a you know, there's always grief in leaving a stage behind. So there is a bit of a grief, like "Oh, you won't have those joys that you had when they were all at home." But there's joys in this new season too, so it's a bit of both.

 

Laura

So what has been one of the most challenging parts of parenting for you?

 

Sarah

Parenting? It's a big deal right. I think I want to make clear that, yeah, I'm still in the thick of it. So everything that comes out of my mouth is, you know, I'm still in training. Only 12 years in. And I know that she's about to embark on teenage-hood. So catch me in another ten years and I might Wisdom.

 

Yes, parenting has been a huge challenge and I think it was the steepest learning curve I've ever experienced. I was completely naive, which I think you are really, until you're in it.

 

Laura

Otherwise, no one would really become a parent.

 

Sarah

That's right.  The advice they give you. But until you're doing it. It's been good. I mean, there's been obviously very joyful parts to it. But I think the most challenging part is the fact that it's really oftentimes a thankless job. Everything you have is poured into this little person, but the fruit of that isn't often seen for a long time. And so it can be a hard road sometimes, especially when you're not seeing the fruit that you want to see.

 

Laura

And so is there any characteristics in your kids that have been particularly, what's the word? edifying for you?

 

Sarah

That's a good word. Yes. All three of my children have very large personalities. They're beautiful and we love them dearly. But yes, they have very big personalities, very big emotions. But I would say that my first daughter, just by being the first one at first, threw me in the deep end, just the whirlwind of birth and all of that. But also, yes, she has been given a very strong will and her personality. And I did not expect that.

I didn't know what to do with that. You know when your baby's born and you look down at their face and you think, "who is in there? Like, who are you?" These big eyes kind of looking up at you. Yeah, I had no idea what was coming.

 

Laura

So would you describe her as a strong-willed child?

 

Sarah

Definitely.

 

Laura

And so when people say, "Oh, I have a strong-willed child." What does that mean? Is that just a disobedient child or one that's hard to discipline? What does it actually look like?

 

Sarah

I think it there's definitely disobedience involved. I don't think it's as simple as saying a disobedient child, but they do tend to be more disobedient than your compliant child because a strong-willed child, also known as a spirited child, is another word I could've used. I think that's maybe a slightly more positive description. But they are just not afraid to challenge. A lot of it for them is about being in control. They don't take no for an answer very easily. And they often are kids with massive emotion.

 

Laura

I mean that's hard enough when they're little and learning to regulate their emotions, let alone having big ones.

 

Sarah

That's right. They don't know what they're doing when they are little. But they want to challenge what you've got to say. They don't just go, "Oh, yeah OK." Just sometimes can feel like a battle on every single thing.

 

Laura

Have you found that you have to parent Inda differently to your other two because she is so strong-willed?

 

Sarah

Definitely, when she was little, there was a vast difference. So, you know, massive meltdowns and huge tantrums, public, private, it didn't really matter. Was very different to her sister. Yeah, I would say the biggest thing that I learnt with Inda was consistency. And to pick your battles, you know that old saying, well, it's super true for strong-willed kids. So they'll battle you on everything, but not everything needs to be a battle.

 

Laura

So just pick the main ones that are important, because you do have to have that I guess, control as a parent, and set the direction [crosstalk 00:06:03].

 

Sarah

I would say actually, the biggest thing I've learned as a parent is that I'm actually not in control. She wants that control. I think a lot of it has to do with her feeling safe as well and wanting to be in charge of what's happening around her. Inda is a very deep thinker, extremely sensitive and always been very curious. They're very perceptive kids. Yeah, they're quite clever. And so you've got to be consistent. You've got to know what you're going in with.

I think, you know, for example, she knew what she wanted to wear very early on. "No, I won't wear that dress. Yes, I will wear that dress." And, you know, early on we would get into these mega battles about what she would wear and what I wanted her to wear. At the end of the day, there had to be a non-negotiable, which was you have to cover up your private parts and you have to dress for the weather and then you can pick whatever you want, like giving a bit of that control back to her.

 

Laura

So if you want to wear your pink sparkly, tutu you can wear.

 

Sarah

That I hate, but you love. And then there's no negotiables to do with character. You can't just go hit your sister over the head. There's going to be consequence for that behaviour. And you have to go into those ones that you know, you have to win. You have to go in there with, "I am going to win this." And that doesn't mean getting angry or losing your temper just means staying calm, repeating the same thing, and not budging.

 

Laura

Put this boundary in place

 

Sarah

They may take a while to accept it, and you may completely freak out with frustration, but you will eventually calm down. But if the consistency is there, my experience has been that they do accept it eventually.

 

Laura

I feel like that would be particularly challenging for, if I was you, it would be particularly challenging for me as a parent. Do you feel like it triggers you in some ways, like it would be bringing out your frustrations and your sin and even would affect your relationship with Chris? Because you two need to be on the same page of [crosstalk 00:07:51] what are our boundaries?

 

Sarah

Yeah, well I'm married to a very, very patient man who's very steady. And I'm more the up and down emotional one.

 

And yeah, it taught me, so good. I would say part of this has been that God has taught me so much about myself, seeing my reactions to her behaviour and the huge anger I feel in her big emotions. We ended up seeing a psychologist for a couple of years with Inda because I was just out of strategy and resorting to yelling and all these things that I never wanted to do as a parent. Yes. So we went to see somebody just to kind of help me understand Inda and help, and Chris, and help strategies to kind of help us out. And I remember them saying everybody has shark music.

 

And so she'd sing like da-dum, da-dum, da-dum and everybody has them. And for me, it was anger. I didn't know how to deal with anger well. And so when my kid is there in full rage, we used to call her a wild animal, like in complete chaos.

 

I would be triggered with my own sense of anger, which I didn't like, because then that would make me freak out and then was such a mess.

 

Laura

Great cycle to get into.

 

Sarah

I found strategies very helpful. So when Inda is doing this, I'm going to X, Y, Z. I just have a plan in my head.

 

Laura

Yeah, focus on yourself, calm you down.

 

Sarah

Walk away [inaudible 00:09:20] all those kinds of things. And if I was out of strategy, that's when I would be in danger of losing the plot. And it obviously happens. Let's not pretend that I have it together all the time.

 

Laura

Wow. So as difficult as all of that seems, it actually sort of sounds like there's some advantages and beauty in having a strong, good character as well. And I think particularly beautiful in having a girl. How do you foster that in your child?

 

Sarah

Foster the beauty of it?

 

Laura

Yeah. So encourage her. And there is these times to have a strong will and stand your ground on things. Is there ways that she has shown that and that you can, you actually can encourage this part of her nature rather than [crosstalk 00:10:06] 

 

Sarah

So I remember from the earliest time that I knew we were kind of dealing with a strong-willed kid, from when she was quite young and lots of meltdowns and huge reactions to seemingly minor things. I just remember praying to God and asking Him over and over that this strong will He's given her would be used for his glory and not against his glory. So that's been a consistent prayer of mine, because, let's face it, having a strong will can be a really great thing as a grown up.

 

It means you are not easily led. It means you think for yourself. It means that you're often a leader. All of those things are great things and it's just that you're raising them from the time they're tiny and they've got no idea what they're supposed to do with all these massive feelings that they've gotten. You know, as a parent it can be really hard because you've got to help mould that, mould their character. So, yes, at this point, and we are only at 12, but Inda is all of those things, she does think for herself.

 

She's not easily led. And I mean, starting high school for me, that's actually reassuring that she's not just going to follow whatever's said without questioning that, and thinking about whether she agrees with that or not, and all that kind of stuff.

 

Laura

That's great, because it's also helpful for your relationship with her that she, if something does go against what she naturally, she doesn't want to go with the crowd, she can come to you and have that conversation with you. And it gives you that opportunity to [crosstalk 00:11:30]

 

Sarah

And because she has been so challenging, she is out of the three of my children, the one that shares the most with me. I guess, because she doesn't just accept what's said to her. So then there's good discussion that happens. And she's curious and she wants to understand and wants to know, so she can think and put it all together for herself. So that has been a real beautiful part of it, too. Like, I think I know her quite deeply because we share quite deeply because of that strong will of hers.

 

Laura

If Sarah of two-year-old Inda could know that that was an outcome, I'm sure that would have been a lot of relief for a second, and then go back to the [crosstalk 00:12:10].

 

Sarah

Persistence is huge. You know, it's a long-term game. All parenting is a long-term game. And I think it's step by step. But I do remember being in those years, I'd probably say zero to six were the most intense. Yeah. And I just thought, "I can't do this, I can't keep doing this."

 

Laura

Yeah, well it's hard enough with any child to teach them to regulate their emotions and just, you know, act in society in a way that works for everyone. I think that's a challenge [crosstalk 00:12:40]

 

Sarah

Traumatising things.

 

Laura

Lots of the struggles around having a strong will seem to be around respect and would be unbearable to live under someone else's limitations that's been put on them. And so how does that work with being a Christian? Because I'd imagine that's an extra struggle and a real challenge for that strong-willed person, as we're called, to be living out our faith in obedience.

 

Sarah

I think that's a struggle for all humans full stop. To some degree. I mean, that's the whole thing with sin. We don't want a God over us. We want to be God. So yes. And then add that extra strong persistence and fight against those things. Yeah, that can be a really hard thing. I think the thing I've found so far is, she'll question everything. When I was growing up, I did grow up in a Christian home and was taught about Jesus from the time I was very small. And I never questioned it. Until actually I had children, and then realised I had to teach them what was true.

 

And so then I did go into a great deal of questioning and seeking and all that kind of stuff. But she's asked them from the get-go. So she was asking huge questions of me like at two and three, but I was gobsmacked that she was [crosstalk 00:13:56]

 

Laura

I don't know the answer to that.

 

Sarah

And then how do you make it applicable for three-year old's understanding?

 

Laura

I think you just believe that, Inda.

 

Sarah

That's right. So that scared me a little bit at first.

 

Laura

It's good for you.

 

Sarah

And it's great for her. So it's meant that she's had 12 years of thinking and processing and deciding whether she agrees or disagrees

 

Laura

And doing that as a child. How beautiful, because I think lots of people who do grow up in a Christian home have that bit of a crisis of, "Oh, why do I believe this?" So to have that as her foundation and she can be prepared to give an answer for what she believes, that's well thought out. That's a pretty amazing gift.

 

Sarah

And I have written it down for because I often think about that for myself growing up in a Christian home, like, "Did I ever ask these questions? I don't remember asking these questions." So I have written them all down for her so she can look back and go, "Yeah. I really did think about this. It hasn't just been."

 

Laura

That's beautiful.

 

Sarah

Yeah. But I don't think strong-willed children are not obedient. I think they just don't obey willy nilly. Like, they're not just going to do it because you say. It takes a lot of thought and consideration, and I think part of it, too, is about control, but also feeling safe. So do I trust you? Do I trust what you're going to tell me? And that's been a big thing, actually, for Inda and I. I've often said to her at times, you just going to have to trust me because there is that anxiety of, "will I be safe? If I do what you say, is it going to be OK?" So I think there is that side to a strong-willed kid as well.

 

Laura

Which doesn't that just reflect the Christian walk as well, in that we're obedient out of faithfulness and trusting in the gospel and having faith. Is that, "Well, I am just going to trust God's promises and that what He says in his word is true?" And sometimes it just does not feel logical or feel like it makes sense. But we're called to do it and we can really trust in God.

 

Sarah

And I think you end up going back to who He is. And can I trust Him? If He’s good, of course I can trust Him. And then [crosstalk 00:15:55] back to Jesus and look how good He is, He's given his son for me? So even if this doesn't make sense in this time of my life, I can trust that He’s good and I can keep following Him. That's my belief. That's my hope for her as it is for all of my kids.

 

Laura

And so do you think being a Christian has changed the way you have parented Inda and her will?

 

Sarah

I think that if I didn't have Jesus in those years, it would have been much, much harder. Having a God to go to who, you know, listen. And He is you. Who's made the child and given it to you. It's very comforting and helpful to be able to cry out to that God and say, help me. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't want to ruin this. I've been entrusted with such a precious gift. And you've given her these qualities.

 

Help me mould these qualities because I don't know what to do. It also allows you to reflect on your relationship with God, because a lot of what I've learnt in parenting is that I act exactly the same way towards God. 

It is so the amount of patience and persistence He’s had with me over my lifetime and grace poured out when I kind of don't want to do what He wants me to do and I disobey by Him all the time. And it is that beauty of teaching your children about forgiveness and teaching them how to ask for forgiveness, but also being able to ask them for forgiveness when you've done the wrong thing. And show them that you too need Jesus. I do think that that has deepened my relationship with God, and it's deepened my trust in Him, too, because I can't save her no matter the best job I do in the world.

 

I mean, God had such rebellious children, has such rebellious children as well, and He’s so holy and perfect. So even if I was the most perfect parent, there's no guarantee that she'll know and love Jesus. Although in saying that it's not irrelevant what you do either, but you can't save them. I think that was a big thing for me. [crosstalk 00:17:47] I can be faithful to God and do my best in teaching her to go to Him. But in the end, at the end of the day, I can't control that.

 

Laura

That's a hard place for anyone to come to. But helpful and humbling.

 

Sarah

So I just think pouring out your heart to God is a very valuable skill.

 

Laura

How do you press on in parenting when you feel at the end of your rope? Just thinking of the mum who probably has that zero to six-year-old. Do you have any hope or encouragement for her or even any practical advice, things that have helped?

 

Sarah

I'd take a deep breath and have a good cry because sometimes that can feel really, really good. And I would remind her that tomorrow is a new day. But again, I would encourage her, pull out her Bible. The Psalms are so helpful because they articulate a lot of these feelings and use them to talk to God, use them to cry out to Him and ask for help in sustaining you and pushing on. And then I would, I mean, I used to ring my mom a lot.

 

If not your mom, then maybe a close friend or something like that. Where you can just de-brief. Get out how you're feeling as well. That was always helpful for me. And to have someone kind of go, kind of put it back into perspective a little bit because it can feel very overwhelming at times. And it's just nice to hear. Even I tell you what I used to love, I used to love when I'd rock up to church for, like, creche and there'd be a mom on helping and she's had a strong-willed child.

 

And just being able to say, "Look, this is Inda. This might happen this morning. I'm really sorry. This is what we do." Like and freaking out a little bit, leaving her there and worrying what's going to happen and her saying, "It's fine, my, you know whoever, was very similar and now He’s [inaudible 00:19:38]." And that used to be very helpful for me to go "Oh, she understands. OK, good. I can leave her there." I reckon. I read a lot of books as well. I just wanted strategy.

 

I just wanted a plan. And when my plans fell apart, I just needed another plan. 

 

Laura

Just need that list that you can work through. OK, the plane engine is crashing. What do I do? Give me my 10 steps.

 

Sarah

That's right. How easy would that be? Tick a box.

 

Laura

Instruction manual for children.

 

Sarah

So I'd say the one book that sticks out in my mind is, I can't remember the authors, but it's called How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk.

 

Laura

I am reading that at the moment. It's very encouraging. I finally got to the first step of identifying their emotion and labelling it.

 

Sarah

But was my first, where I learnt first strategies for with Inda. I got that and I read it and I read it and I read it. And I put all of the things like from each chapter, stuck them up on my wall, and practised some of the sentences so that they sounded so [inaudible 00:20:42] and ridiculous when I was saying them.

 

Laura

It's there in the moment

 

Sarah

I know you're feeling embarrassed. That must be like, you know, sounded like a robot. However, the longer I've done it [crosstalk 00:20:57]

 

Laura

It's really hard when we feel angry isn't it?

 

Sarah

Used to completely throw that in the garbage because you'd say to her, "Inda it looks like you're angry." And she'd be like, "Roar." "Of course I'm angry." But for me, it was very helpful because it gave me some words instead of some yelling and some freaking out of myself. So I would recommend that book just for having a plan of how to use your own words.

 

Laura

I am pretty convinced that on audible there's a condensed version of it as well. So if you are time-poor. They've just summed it up for everything you need to know. Have a read of that. And then when you've got some more time. Go and read the reasoning behind it.

 

Sarah

So yep, I found that helpful. I mean, I read them all. Like I read Raising the Strong-Willed Child by James Dobson, all those. But that's the one that stuck with me the most because it gave me some strategy.

 

Laura

Great. I would also encourage people to go and see a counsellor or psychologist for themselves as well. Because I know for me, I've struggled with anger or not knowing what to do or why am I reacting this way? And when they really push your buttons, it's been really helpful to have time where I can talk to someone for an hour and figure out what's actually going on for me, and someone workshopping me in that moment so that I can work through my reactions. And then I can model that to them and help them with the same things, because really, we're going through the same thing. I'm having an emotional outburst of, "I don't know how to do this." Because they're not knowing how to do something.

 

Sarah

Yes, absolutely. So I'd say also a big thing is that I've learnt to listen better. I think listening, listening, listening to what your kid is saying is very helpful as well. For trying to understand where they're coming from before you react. And that's harder to do when they're tiny, of course. But as they get older and able to have more articulation of what's going on for them, that's been very helpful as well.